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John- I'm not even going there...........

Lauren - I sympathize with your frustration about all that church Latin not helping your conversation skills. My four years at Custer didn't help me much either. Translation from text, yes - some; aural skills - not much. But, I bet all that church Latin did wonders for your SAT score!

08/13/13 02:22 PM

#1203

OK, definately not trying to be politically incorrect, insensitive, controversial or anything - just old and curious - but how did it go from Latin - the language, Rome, Et tu Brute, Cartago delenda est, Veni, Vidi, Vici, Roman Empire, etc, to, Latin America - where they don't speak Latin, Latino (Julius Ceasar was Latino?), and that kind of stuff? Somewhere I failed to get the connection.

And, speaking of (in?) Latin, if Yoda had been around during Custer times, it may have been easier to understand Latin sentence structure.

08/13/13 03:05 PM

#1204

Wait! I must have misunderstood something here!

How did we get from Latin to South America (uh, "Latin America")? Was that REALLY the question? How Latin got to be Spanish, French, Italian, and Portuguese is pretty fascinating to me, and I don't even know a smidgeon of it. (My two sisters-in-law would be the experts to consult on this) Anyway, it had to do with the collapse of the Roman Empire and the fact that areas which had been united under its rule became isolated, thus each developing a different variant of the common Latin, depending upon the dialects of the area. Particularly in Southern Spain, Spanish borrowed words from Moorish Arabic and Ladino. Of course, the sad and bloody story of how this all came to South America is another tale, including the reprehensible attempts by the church to stamp out indigenous languages and culture. Oh-oh! Am I getting political?

08/13/13 03:23 PM

#1205

I'll have to research this now (Wikipedia, here I come) to find out who first coined the phrase "Latin America". Surely it is as Nancy said, due to the Latin-derived languages spoken there.

08/13/13 03:27 PM

#1206

According to Phelan (1968, p. 296), the term "Latin America" was first used in 1861 in La revue des races Latines, a magazine "dedicated to the cause of Pan-Latinism".

08/13/13 07:41 PM

#1207

That makes sense Nancy, and then transposed to S. America ala Teri.

S'pose that's good to know, living in CA.

08/14/13 06:56 AM

#1208

Yes, especially since California used to be Spanish. That is, before it was Mexican. Wait! What about the Pueblos and the Pimas? Oh dear!

08/14/13 09:01 AM

#1209

We live right on the land where DeAnza, a Spanish soldier/explorer once crossed and encamped while transporting a group of hundreds of Mexicans over 2000 miles north (from Latin America) to become guards of a Presidio to be established in San Francisco. The soldiers-to-be were offered a living wage and land as an incentive, and they brought their wives and children. It was remarkable because nobody died on the long journey, and a new baby was born. I always hope to find some rare Spanish coins (under the ruse of planting shrubs and vegetables), but so far, no luck.

08/14/13 09:19 AM

#1210

Lauren Dieterich

My Ex worked with a girl who would tell anyone who would listen, that she was not Mexican. She was Indian and Spanish. I always thought that that was what Mexicans were.

08/14/13 10:22 AM

#1211

Well, it's kind of like being American: sometimes I define myself by my ethnic background and sometimes my citizenship. I was once detailing my husband's ethnic background (English, German, Irish, Swedish) to a German friend, and she laughed and said "It sounds like he's American!" Lauren, it sounds as if that Mexican woman only wanted to claim her ethnic background and not her citizenship. That said, the people brought here by DeAnza were indiginous people from Mexico, and I don't believe they even called that area Mexico at that time, so I shouldn't have referred to them as "Mexicans".

08/14/13 12:11 PM

#1212

Terri, I think you're right about the woman's claim; Lauren, I think you're also right - the Mexicans are "Indian" and Spanish. There are some who would like to think of themselves as pure Spanish, but I think that the dynamics of what was going on throughout Mexico's history would suggest that there are fewer than claimed. (Just as the idea of "racial purity" is a myth in this country, where slave women often bore the children of their masters) I've not heard much about current descendants of the Olmec, Toltec, Teotiahuacano, or Aztec groups, but the Mayan descendants are very aware of, and continue, their cultural traditions; Quechua is still spoken, especially further south and in the mountains of Guatemala (Da Anza was accompanied by a Quechua chief, and probably others from the same group).

Anyone who travels to Mexico City should not miss the Anthropological Museum, one of the world's greatest. Each culture has its own area; the sculptures by the Aztecs will particularly take your breath away, as well as the stunning headress of Quetzal feathers from Guatemala, the mock-ups of the ancient cities, and the gold pieces (and that's what it was all about, in the end, anyway).

08/14/13 01:02 PM

#1213

That is all very interesting, Nancy. I am tutoring a neighbor boy (7th grader) and we just finished studying the Maya and Aztec civilizations, and I now have a renewed interested in exploring what remains of those civilizations today! There was a "B", possibly "C" movie on TV yesterday called (I think) "The Mystery of the Grand Canyon" starring Shannon Doherty and a bunch of unknowns; in this movie there was a group of Aztecs living in a secret area of the Canyon, still practicing human sacrifice in order to appease a "god', which was some slime-producing prehistoric dragon-like creature who devoured everyone he saw. I really know how to find the best movies!!

08/14/13 03:58 PM

#1214

Most of those cultures have gods/myths that include a snake, and often the snake had feathers. This represented the earth/human (snake) and sky/divine (feathers), i.e. the duality of the world. The myth of how Mexico City was founded (the wandering nomads were told by their god to settle where an eagle standing on a cactus held a snake in its mouth) incorporates those two animals and explains why they founded the city on such precarious topography.

A wonderful book about the things we have been discussing: The Buried Mirror by Carlos Fuentes. Nina gave it to me many years ago; I have read it twice, and probably will give it one more go – it’s that interesting and informative (probably a better bet than "Mystery of the Grand Canyon"?).

08/14/13 04:21 PM

#1215

Okay, I'm especially talkative today, but I have to tell you about our Quezacoatl sculpture/statue in San Jose. An artist was commissioned and paid mucho dinero to create a bronze rendition of the Aztec god Quezacoatl, which is, I believe, supposed to be a snake. This bronze creation sits prominently in a square in a park in downtown San Jose. There was a huge uproar when the public saw the final product, since the snake is coiled, brown bronze, and looks exactly like a pile of dog doo-doo. But uproar or not, there it still sits! As people pass it by, murmurings can be overheard about "our tax dollars at work."

08/14/13 07:11 PM

#1216

Wow! I'm impressed!

And does this Quetzalcuatl have feathers ? (he should)

08/14/13 07:47 PM

#1217

It seems that the Spanish influence on Mexico was of a different motivation and direction than their activities in California. Mexico, Central and South America were exploited for the riches to be exported back to Spain. California was more geographically and environmentally more similar to Spain itself, and here they seemed to be more interested in making it into an extension of the homeland - almost unlimited land for ranching and farming, conversion of the indigenous peoples rather than enslavement, civil government and taxes. Thanks to Father Junípero Serra and Zorro, the local histories, the string of monasteries, in great part define California.

Also, the cities and places they established in California are a lot easier to spell and pronounce.

08/14/13 08:02 PM

#1218

Ha! Jim - As I suspected ( now confirmed) - your post on 8/13 was a ruse. You probably know more about the history of Spain in the New World than do any of us (or, for sure, at least Spain in California). Then you probably also find it all fascinating. Oh - so much yet to learn, so little time......

08/14/13 08:05 PM

#1219

Not really Nancy - - -

But, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

08/14/13 09:12 PM

#1220

Call me dense, but you lost me..........

08/14/13 10:53 PM

#1221

Hmm - when I first placed this it was a photo of the statue. I'll try again. Wicki said Quetzalcoatl was a Mayan god, as did my tutoring student's textbook. But the Aztecs borrowed many of the Mayan gods, so it was probably both!

08/14/13 11:05 PM

#1222

Garry Sellers

Okay Nancy, so you're dense ... and obviously don't watch enough TV commercials! And South American, or is that Latin American, wines better than Napa Valley wines? Please!!! If you'd get off that island and stay at a luxury Holiday Inn Express, you'd wake up with all the answers ... probably as a sommelier!

08/15/13 12:15 AM

#1223

Sommelier

That was one of the clues in my crossword puzzle tonight.

08/15/13 07:02 AM

#1224